AI leadership strategies for a changing world

This episodeof the Corporate Director Podcast features Beena Ammanath, Global Head of Deloitte's AI Institute. Beenadiscusses her career background in AI and her perspectives on responsible AI adoption. She shares her insights on the importance of AI literacy, decision-making frameworks, and the need for leaders to proactively address workforce disruptions caused by AI integration. She emphasizes the responsibility of leaders to define new job roles and provide continuous learning opportunities to nurture emerging talent in an AI-driven world.

Transcript for this episode:

Narrator

Welcome to the Corporate Director podcast, where we discuss the experiences and ideas behind what's working in corporate board governance in our digital tech fueled world. Here, you'll discover new insights from corporate leaders and governance researchers with compelling stories about corporate governance, strategy, board culture, risk management, digital transformation, and more.

00:00:34:00 - 00:00:48:14

Dottie Schindlinger

Hi everybody and welcome back to the Corporate Director Podcast, the Voice of Modern Governance. My name is Dottie Hininger, executive Director of The Diligent Institute, and I'm joined once again by my co-host extraordinaire Meghan Day, Strategy Leader here at Diligent.

00:00:48:19 - 00:00:50:15

Dottie Schindlinger

Meghan, how are you doing today?

00:00:50:14 - 00:00:57:13

Meghan Day

I am great, Dottie. I am, just catching up on all of the hot gossip with the PCAOB.

00:00:57:12 - 00:00:59:03

Meghan Day

We talked about that,

00:00:59:03 - 00:01:02:12

Meghan Day

back in, July, I believe it was,

00:01:02:13 - 00:01:12:04

Meghan Day

and the SEC Chair finally ousted the head of that board, brought in somebody new. The drama never ends here in Washington, D.C..

00:01:12:11 - 00:01:25:06

Dottie Schindlinger

Never, never ending drama. And you know, of course, what always happens, Meghan, is we record these and the very next day, everything changes. So we don't know what this will sound like by the time you listen to this podcast. To be totally honest with you, it's all over the place.

00:01:25:06 - 00:01:34:21

Dottie Schindlinger

But actually, Meghan, you know, this is a little bit unrelated, but it is related in a way, because I was just reading the latest, research that came out of Diligent Institute.

00:01:34:23 - 00:01:44:15

Dottie Schindlinger

We've just started doing quarterly something new called the General Counsel Risk Index. It's sort of a follow on from our Director Confidence Index that we've been doing for the last five years.

00:01:44:16 - 00:01:55:15

Dottie Schindlinger

We wanted to find out from general counsels what are they seeing as some of the key areas of risk and related to the ups and downs of the PCAOB and what's happening with the SEC?

00:01:55:16 - 00:02:00:11

Dottie Schindlinger

What do you think that they listed as the top risk for their business or sector?

00:02:00:11 - 00:02:01:20

Meghan Day

I know the answer, Dottie.

00:02:01:20 - 00:02:04:23

Dottie Schindlinger

What? Well, what's the answer? Megan?

00:02:04:23 - 00:02:06:19

Meghan Day

the same article.

00:02:08:07 - 00:02:16:02

Dottie Schindlinger

Yes, yes. General counsels are a little bit concerned by the rapid changes in the regulatory environment. And I got to think that

00:02:16:02 - 00:02:22:03

Dottie Schindlinger

this has a lot to do with executive orders, with the cuts of whole departments by Dodge,

00:02:22:03 - 00:02:28:06

Dottie Schindlinger

by some of the ups and downs and changes coming out of the budget bill, you know, whether things are included, whether they're not included.

00:02:28:06 - 00:02:29:06

Meghan Day

I mean, maybe they won't have to

00:02:29:06 - 00:02:32:21

Meghan Day

follow a Sarbanes-Oxley. You know, all of these things. are

00:02:32:21 - 00:02:33:21

Meghan Day

bribery. It's

00:02:33:21 - 00:02:35:11

Dottie Schindlinger

heaven forbid,

00:02:37:07 - 00:02:38:11

Dottie Schindlinger

oh, but we kid

00:02:38:10 - 00:02:45:02

Dottie Schindlinger

But we don't kid. I think if you're a general counsel right now, it is hard to keep on top of this. I think it's really challenging

00:02:45:01 - 00:02:48:08

Dottie Schindlinger

keep everything straight. And, you know, you got to ask yourself

00:02:48:08 - 00:02:50:11

Dottie Schindlinger

Okay, here's a new executive order.

00:02:50:11 - 00:02:52:11

Dottie Schindlinger

Does this go into effect immediately?

00:02:52:12 - 00:02:55:00

Dottie Schindlinger

Is it constitutional?

00:02:55:01 - 00:02:58:09

Dottie Schindlinger

There's quite a few things that you have to sort of figure out.

00:02:58:10 - 00:03:01:10

Dottie Schindlinger

And companies are really struggling to kind of keep on top of this.

00:03:01:10 - 00:03:08:17

Dottie Schindlinger

It was interesting, though, Megan, I don't know if you saw the section of this where we asked the same question of directors. They had a little bit of a different view.

00:03:08:17 - 00:03:10:06

Dottie Schindlinger

They were more interested about the

00:03:10:05 - 00:03:11:13

Dottie Schindlinger

economic impact of tariffs.

00:03:11:13 - 00:03:12:21

Dottie Schindlinger

And I wonder what you thought about that.

00:03:12:22 - 00:03:13:17

Meghan Day

Well, I feel like

00:03:13:18 - 00:03:22:06

Meghan Day

it could be the classic director response of general counsel needs to be responsible for the regulatory changes. Let us focus on other issues.

00:03:22:07 - 00:03:37:07

Dottie Schindlinger

Exactly. I mean, now, to be fair, the general counsels told us, you know, 65% of them labeled changes in the regulatory environment as the number one risk, but 41% the top two answer, 41% said the impact of economic tariffs,

00:03:37:07 - 00:03:40:09

Dottie Schindlinger

is the second highest risk. And when you look at what's happening with

00:03:40:09 - 00:03:45:02

Dottie Schindlinger

directors perspective, they list tariffs number one at 81%.

00:03:45:04 - 00:03:54:12

Dottie Schindlinger

And then supply chain and inflation and currency fluctuations were tied for second place at 48%. They listed changes in the regulatory environment a little further down. Look for them.

00:03:54:11 - 00:04:01:23

Dottie Schindlinger

Only 23% felt that that was a big risk. But to your point, Megan, it's because they've got good general counsels that are keeping on top of that and keeping them informed.

00:04:02:00 - 00:04:07:00

Dottie Schindlinger

I do think an interesting kind of segue to our guest today is the fact that,

00:04:07:00 - 00:04:21:10

Dottie Schindlinger

we didn't see anything technological topped this list, and that's that's kind of new. I mean, we asked directors these questions a lot about what do you see as the key area of risk. And often they say cyber risk. Yeah. Cyber risk or they say I, you know, and what's going to happen with AI,

00:04:21:11 - 00:04:22:04

Dottie Schindlinger

in this

00:04:22:03 - 00:04:23:03

Dottie Schindlinger

survey though.

00:04:23:03 - 00:04:27:05

Dottie Schindlinger

Technological disruption for GCs, they rated that only 8%

00:04:27:05 - 00:04:28:12

Dottie Schindlinger

said that was a risk.

00:04:28:12 - 00:04:31:21

Dottie Schindlinger

Directors only 6% said technological disruption was a big risk.

00:04:31:21 - 00:04:35:07

Dottie Schindlinger

Technological adoption and implementation came in a little higher.

00:04:35:07 - 00:04:42:22

Dottie Schindlinger

12% of directors said that was the top risk. 23% of general counsel said that was a top risk. But it's nowhere in the top three or top five.

00:04:43:00 - 00:04:58:07

Dottie Schindlinger

It's way down on the list. And so that I think that kind of tells me a couple things. One is, I'd be willing to bet that means a lot of them feel like they've got their AI and technology strategies kind of set by this point in the year. They're feeling pretty good about it. They're feeling like, you know, it's okay, we know what we're doing.

00:04:58:07 - 00:05:12:09

Dottie Schindlinger

We don't feel like this is going to upend our business. But it also says, you know, there's so much happening in the news cycle that feels much more existential and immediate. And so getting your arms around that might be the big challenge of the day. What what's your take on it?

00:05:12:10 - 00:05:16:03

Meghan Day

Well, I think, Dottie, that's a great way to type our conversation today with Beena

00:05:16:03 - 00:05:19:22

Meghan Day

Ammanath. Beena is the Global Head of Deloitte's AI Institute.

00:05:19:21 - 00:05:27:01

Meghan Day

Very much an expert in this area, and she has a great perspective on why this should all be top of mind for folks.

00:05:27:01 - 00:05:28:07

Dottie Schindlinger

Great. Well, let's give it a listen.

00:05:37:06 - 00:05:42:09

Meghan Day

Joining us on the Corporate Director Podcast today is Beena Ammanath.

00:05:42:08 - 00:05:46:01

Meghan Day

Beena is the Global Head of Deloitte's AI Institute.

00:05:46:03 - 00:05:56:03

Meghan Day

And she's also authored two very insightful books, “Trustworthy AI” and “Zero Latency Leadership.” Beena, welcome to the podcast.

00:05:56:02 - 00:06:00:00

Beena Ammanath

Thank you so much for having me, Megan. I'm excited for our conversation.

00:06:00:07 - 00:06:17:17

Meghan Day

Well, I seems to be front and center in all conversations leaders are having today, so we are really excited to have you here with us. To start, could you share a little bit about your journey, what sparked your deep involvement with AI and the path that you've been on?

00:06:17:18 - 00:06:34:19

Beena Ammanath

So I didn't choose AI. I just happened to make my way there. I studied computer science, and at that time, we were going through the AI winter. So AI was not really a hot topic. It was more of theory. We couldn't really get our hands dirty. And I'm totally dating myself here because this was a long, long time ago.

00:06:34:18 - 00:06:35:05

Beena Ammanath

But,

00:06:35:05 - 00:06:46:00

Beena Ammanath

when I started my career, I focused on data. I was fascinated on data management systems, and this was way back when we just had transactional databases.

00:06:46:01 - 00:06:47:15

Beena Ammanath

And then came the era of,

00:06:47:15 - 00:06:56:19

Beena Ammanath

business intelligence and data warehousing. That was the next iteration of the data journey. And then came big data and machine learning and data science and AI.

00:06:56:23 - 00:07:06:01

Beena Ammanath

It's a lot of what, you know, we heard about in theory of AI is now becoming real. So I'm super excited about where AI is today. And,

00:07:06:01 - 00:07:17:10

Beena Ammanath

the fact that everybody is talking about it, because this, I think is one of the coolest and most powerful technology, and we can do so much good to the world if we use it rightly.

00:07:17:10 - 00:07:23:16

Meghan Day

I love that, and I would love to hear a little bit more about the books that I mentioned in your introduction. What

00:07:23:15 - 00:07:27:10

Meghan Day

fueled your desire to write these? And how has that experience been for you?

00:07:27:12 - 00:07:33:06

Beena Ammanath

Yeah. So I'm a technologist by training, and my entire journey has been

00:07:33:07 - 00:07:37:03

Beena Ammanath

in the space of applied technology. So applied data.

00:07:37:04 - 00:07:44:22

Beena Ammanath

I've worked in telecom companies and I've worked in manufacturing. I've worked in financial services and banks and trading companies.

00:07:44:21 - 00:07:45:09

Beena Ammanath

And

00:07:45:10 - 00:07:50:04

Beena Ammanath

what I've seen is how data and AI is applied in the real world.

00:07:50:06 - 00:07:52:13

Beena Ammanath

And there was a narrative. And,

00:07:52:11 - 00:08:14:10

Beena Ammanath

early on when we started talking about ethics in AI, the conversation was very focused on bias. And I was working in a company where I was focused on making jet engines perform better, or predicting jet engine failure. And I'm like, how does bias fit into it? Not really when you're looking at machine data, but there were other

00:08:14:08 - 00:08:26:06

Beena Ammanath

side effects of AI, like being able to have reliable algorithms, being able to understand how the algorithm was performing more transparency.

00:08:26:04 - 00:08:49:21

Beena Ammanath

So that's how you know, “Trustworthy AI” was born, you know, really looking at it from as a side effects of, yeah, yes, we can get tremendous value from AI, but it comes with certain side effects, whether it is bias and transparency or whether it's reliability, whether it's impact on the workforce. And that was what got me interested into thinking about trustworthy AI.

00:08:49:21 - 00:09:16:12

Beena Ammanath

Yeah. How do you build trust in AI systems by proactively thinking about the side effects and addressing it. So that was the birth of “Trustworthy AI” and really looking at it from the impact, from an enterprise perspective. And what could organizations and what could leaders do to ensure that trust in the AI systems are very much a practical guide, as opposed to just predicting the worst case scenarios?

00:09:16:12 - 00:09:19:02

Beena Ammanath

Looking at it, what are the steps? And

00:09:19:03 - 00:09:33:07

Beena Ammanath

I also make it very clear in the book that it's impossible to identify every possible side effect. So leaders have a choice to make if you don't understand the full side effects, whether or not to use AI in that scenario.

00:09:33:07 - 00:09:37:03

Beena Ammanath

So that was “Trustworthy AI” and then “Zero Latency Leadership” was

00:09:37:05 - 00:09:37:12

Beena Ammanath

where

00:09:37:11 - 00:10:01:19

Beena Ammanath

once I became more common, and really looking at how can leaders thrive and succeed in this era of AI where humans and machines are working so closely together? What is this new kind of leadership look like at every level? Right? Whether you are operating at a board level or at the C-suite or at middle management, or an early career manager. What do leaders need to do to make sure,

00:10:01:20 - 00:10:08:15

Beena Ammanath

that humans and machines work in the best possible way, where we get the maximum benefit with the minimum side effects?

00:10:08:20 - 00:10:18:00

Beena Ammanath

So those were the two books that, you know, I felt strongly about, and I didn't feel there was a perspective out there in the market, especially given my background,

00:10:18:00 - 00:10:19:12

Beena Ammanath

of applied AI.

00:10:19:11 - 00:10:22:20

Beena Ammanath

I thought that there was something of value that I could share.

00:10:22:21 - 00:10:36:00

Meghan Day

Well, let's unpack that a little bit further. In your books, you highlight the crucial need for technology, literacy, and decision making frameworks. Can you expand on why these are so important, especially from the lens of a board member?

00:10:36:00 - 00:10:51:12

Beena Ammanath

Yeah, yeah. I think frameworks give you a starting point. I don't think any framework is a standalone by itself. It's going to be functional, but it gives you a starting point to make sure that you are asking the right questions. You're probing

00:10:51:11 - 00:10:57:16

Beena Ammanath

for the right answers and that naturally needs also an understanding of the technology itself.

00:10:57:16 - 00:11:05:16

Beena Ammanath

A base level understanding of AI is absolutely crucial. So I'm a huge believer that every one of us

00:11:05:15 - 00:11:13:10

Beena Ammanath

needs to have a foundational understanding of technology and of AI, especially in this world that we live in today.

00:11:13:11 - 00:11:14:20

Beena Ammanath

AI literacy is not

00:11:14:21 - 00:11:20:08

Beena Ammanath

just to make sure that you perform your job effectively. It is just to be even a good citizen.

00:11:20:13 - 00:11:36:20

Beena Ammanath

It's just to be able to when you read a hyped up newspaper headline, you know, to be able to see and translate it into what that means for you as a human being, as a citizen, how relevant it is or how far stretched it is. I think AI literacy

00:11:36:18 - 00:11:49:01

Beena Ammanath

for today's world is absolutely crucial, and frameworks give you a starting point to go deeper into actually finding the solutions for making these AI systems more robust.

00:11:49:01 - 00:12:13:09

Meghan Day

As we alluded to earlier, there seems to be a frenzy around AI in the corporate world right now. Many leaders are obviously eager to integrate AI immediately, to see some of those benefits as soon as possible. What guidance would you offer leaders as they approach AI thoughtfully and effectively, and avoiding potential disruptions to their workforce?

00:12:13:09 - 00:12:20:21

Beena Ammanath

Look, you know, there is going to be changes to the workforce. And, you know, I'll start with an example, Meghan, so that it’ll make it a little bit more real.

00:12:20:22 - 00:12:22:09

Beena Ammanath

This was a way back

00:12:22:09 - 00:12:27:14

Beena Ammanath

when my data science AI team was looking at predicting X-ray machine’s

00:12:27:14 - 00:12:34:13

Beena Ammanath

outputs to help radiologists do their jobs better. To help them X-ray machine operators do their jobs faster.

00:12:34:15 - 00:12:35:04

Beena Ammanath

Now,

00:12:35:03 - 00:12:38:11

Beena Ammanath

as I've mentioned, I, I'm from a technology background, and as

00:12:38:12 - 00:12:47:07

Beena Ammanath

any technologist, I went deep into making sure that algorithm worked you know, with the most accuracy and the best possible way,

00:12:47:06 - 00:12:49:12

Beena Ammanath

to make sure that it was done. And then,

00:12:49:12 - 00:13:02:10

Beena Ammanath

as we were working with these operators, when we rolled out that system, we realized that the challenges that they were thinking about were much different than what we had anticipated. From an X-ray machine operators perspective,

00:13:02:12 - 00:13:18:08

Beena Ammanath

he and she is thinking, okay, we can do x rays faster, but it's not like humans are suddenly going to have an uptick in fractures. So, you know, how does this impact my job? Will I still have an eight hour job?

00:13:18:08 - 00:13:25:01

Beena Ammanath

If AI is going to make my job get done faster, what does that mean for my work day?

00:13:25:03 - 00:13:27:06

Beena Ammanath

And so it was an interesting,

00:13:27:06 - 00:13:37:08

Beena Ammanath

perspective. And very early on, I realized that is something that, you know, leaders need to consider from a workforce perspective. And too often we hear,

00:13:37:08 - 00:13:42:20

Beena Ammanath

oh, AI is going to make your job easier, or the AI is going to make you do your job faster.

00:13:42:20 - 00:13:44:20

Beena Ammanath

But I think you need to go

00:13:44:19 - 00:13:45:20

Beena Ammanath

a little bit deeper.

00:13:45:20 - 00:13:57:06

Beena Ammanath

As a leader, you have the responsibility to go a little bit deeper and actually translate into, what happens when I make the job easier? What happens to that workday?

00:13:57:06 - 00:14:01:17

Beena Ammanath

If the job is being done faster in four hours?

00:14:01:17 - 00:14:06:09

Beena Ammanath

What what is this employee supposed to be doing for the remaining four hours?

00:14:06:09 - 00:14:12:23

Beena Ammanath

We also talk a lot about, oh, I will, displace the workforce, but don't worry, it's going to create new jobs.

00:14:13:01 - 00:14:19:01

Beena Ammanath

But what are those new jobs? And that's something I've been thinking about a lot, right? That

00:14:19:01 - 00:14:32:10

Beena Ammanath

there are new jobs that's going to be created. But how do we actually define those job roles? How do we actually put a structure behind it, put a career path? What are the skills that's needed for these new jobs that’ll

00:14:32:10 - 00:14:32:21

Beena Ammanath

come up?

00:14:32:21 - 00:14:36:19

Beena Ammanath

As more and more I get embedded into the systems? So

00:14:36:19 - 00:14:52:19

Beena Ammanath

I think leaders have a responsibility to go beyond just the clichés of AI is going to make your jobs easier, or AI is going to take away the boring parts of your job to actually defining what exactly does a new role look like? What,

00:14:52:19 - 00:14:54:10

Beena Ammanath

once a job becomes easier,

00:14:54:11 - 00:14:57:09

Beena Ammanath

what's the creative part of your job

00:14:57:08 - 00:14:58:07

Beena Ammanath

that is gonna occupy your

00:14:58:06 - 00:15:05:08

Beena Ammanath

days? So I do think leaders have a huge responsibility to proactively think about that.

00:15:05:07 - 00:15:19:08

Meghan Day

Definitely. And there definitely seems to be a tension between being excited about embracing AI and possible, you know, displacement, fears of your job being taken away. And I think that's really practical advice,

00:15:19:07 - 00:15:21:09

Meghan Day

for organizations to think about.

00:15:21:09 - 00:15:32:21

Meghan Day

During a recent roundtable, we discuss the impact of generative AI on succession planning and talent pipelines. How do you think leaders can nurture emerging talent?

00:15:32:21 - 00:15:40:17

Meghan Day

When I automate many foundational tasks, you know, that have traditionally been stepping stones in career development.

00:15:40:17 - 00:15:43:01

Beena Ammanath

That's such a great question.

00:15:43:01 - 00:15:55:14

Beena Ammanath

I am a big believer that no matter what your job is today or no matter what your education is today, it's going to change. We've entered the era of continuous learning. I have two

00:15:55:15 - 00:15:58:05

Beena Ammanath

graduates. This in the last two weeks.

00:15:58:07 - 00:15:59:18

Meghan Day

Congratulations.

00:15:59:18 - 00:16:04:07

Beena Ammanath

you know, we've been having more and more conversations on what does, you know, what should they focus on?

00:16:04:07 - 00:16:14:15

Beena Ammanath

What should they major in? What does this future look like for somebody coming fresh into the workforce? And no, not everybody has to become a data scientist or an AI engineer. They're

00:16:14:15 - 00:16:19:13

Beena Ammanath

still going to be a need for many, many of the jobs that’s there, but

00:16:19:13 - 00:16:23:14

Beena Ammanath

I think the big shift is you need to become tech fluent.

00:16:23:14 - 00:16:37:04

Beena Ammanath

You need to become AI savvy irrespective of whether you're graduating as a nurse or a doctor or a pilot, AI is going to be a tool that is going to be part of your role.

00:16:37:04 - 00:16:38:03

Beena Ammanath

I do think,

00:16:38:04 - 00:16:41:16

Beena Ammanath

you know, more and more universities are embedding AI fluency

00:16:41:16 - 00:16:43:06

Beena Ammanath

classes into these,

00:16:43:06 - 00:16:44:20

Beena Ammanath

into the curriculum, but still,

00:16:44:20 - 00:16:52:08

Beena Ammanath

you know, for leaders, it's to make sure there is an AI fluency training that's available for anybody who joins a job, no matter what

00:16:52:08 - 00:17:09:03

Beena Ammanath

they're coming in for. They might be coming as a an accountant. You know, there are AI tools that they need to understand. It's not just understanding the basics of accounting or becoming a master at finance. It's about also understanding what AI tools are available for finance professionals, for

00:17:09:03 - 00:17:12:23

Beena Ammanath

accountants, and being able to use those tools effectively. So

00:17:13:00 - 00:17:28:12

Beena Ammanath

leaders that provide that kind of environment, leaders that provide, continuous learning opportunity, because there'll be constantly new tools that come in, you know, leaders providing that continuous learning opportunity are going to thrive in this era.

00:17:28:12 - 00:17:35:01

Meghan Day

Well, as we wrap up, any final thoughts or advice to leave with our audience of corporate directors and senior leaders?

00:17:35:01 - 00:17:36:00

Beena Ammanath

I do think

00:17:36:00 - 00:17:43:20

Beena Ammanath

as corporate directors, you also have to get equally AI savvy. Now doesn't mean you need to write the AI algorithms or doesn't

00:17:43:20 - 00:17:54:00

Beena Ammanath

mean you need to understand Python or R, but you do need to understand the basics of AI. What is machine learning? What is deep learning? What's computer vision? How, you know,

00:17:54:00 - 00:17:58:01

Beena Ammanath

how does this impact my organization? How does this impact an industry?

00:17:58:01 - 00:17:58:14

Beena Ammanath

I think,

00:17:58:14 - 00:18:09:00

Beena Ammanath

as corporate directors, it's important to focus the time and energy to not only learn about AI, but start using AI tools in your job.

00:18:08:23 - 00:18:21:02

Meghan Day

I love that well, being a great advice. And let's move into a couple of questions we ask all of our guests. The first is, what do you think will be the biggest difference between boardrooms today and ten years from now?

00:18:21:02 - 00:18:36:04

Beena Ammanath

Oh, I don't think we'll have to wait ten years for this one, but a more tech savvy board, a more AI savvy board. Yeah, AI is still early in its journey. There is still a lot to be done, and there's still a lot of research happening in this space. So I think

00:18:36:04 - 00:18:39:10

Beena Ammanath

we'll see more AI savvy board members in the boardroom.

00:18:39:10 - 00:18:44:11

Meghan Day

Definitely agree with you there. Well, lastly, what is your current passion project?

00:18:44:19 - 00:18:47:17

Beena Ammanath

An area that I've been looking at a lot is,

00:18:47:15 - 00:18:50:20

Beena Ammanath

DPIs, digital public infrastructure.

00:18:50:20 - 00:18:51:08

Beena Ammanath

When you

00:18:51:08 - 00:19:05:05

Beena Ammanath

are entering this AI native world, a digital world. What's the impact to the public infrastructure? How can you, whether it is you're talking about digital identity or digital payments, what are

00:19:05:05 - 00:19:06:23

Beena Ammanath

those new systems that come into play?

00:19:06:23 - 00:19:09:19

Beena Ammanath

And we're seeing pockets of it in different parts of the world.

00:19:09:19 - 00:19:10:02

Beena Ammanath

So

00:19:10:14 - 00:19:16:10

Beena Ammanath

very excited about the potential of DPI, and I've been looking a lot into that area.

00:19:16:14 - 00:19:24:02

Meghan Day

I love that. Well, we'll have to have you back on the show next year, because I feel like the world of AI will look radically different.

00:19:24:01 - 00:19:30:06

Meghan Day

A year from now, just with the rate of change, the is happening. So thank you so much Beena sharing your expertise today.

00:19:30:06 - 00:19:32:05

Beena Ammanath

Thank you so much for having me, Meghan.

00:19:42:08 - 00:19:44:00

Dottie Schindlinger

Meghan, thank you so much for that interview.

00:19:43:23 - 00:19:53:11

Dottie Schindlinger

I'm so glad we had a chance to have Beena on the show. She was one of the faculty members for our AI Ethics and Board Oversight Program and I just I always find her take to be really

00:19:53:11 - 00:19:57:07

Dottie Schindlinger

reassuring and very optimistic, I would say.

00:19:57:08 - 00:20:05:14

Dottie Schindlinger

but in a way that makes a lot of business sense. And so I'm glad we had the chance to talk to her. What were some of the big ahas for you coming out of that conversation?

00:20:05:14 - 00:20:16:20

Meghan Day

Well, it goes hand in hand with something that we've been saying a lot at Diligent lately, both internally and externally to our customers. This idea that you're not going to lose

00:20:16:20 - 00:20:27:23

Meghan Day

your job to AI. You're going to lose your job to the person who knows how to use and leverage AI to be more effective to open up new doors and to

00:20:28:00 - 00:20:29:14

Meghan Day

embrace new possibilities.

00:20:29:14 - 00:20:32:13

Meghan Day

And I think that that really rang true in this conversation.

00:20:32:22 - 00:20:33:08

Dottie Schindlinger

I

00:20:33:07 - 00:20:37:23

Dottie Schindlinger

very much want to cling to that, Meghan, but I will tell you,

00:20:37:23 - 00:20:56:05

Dottie Schindlinger

I’m of a couple minds there because. Yeah. I mean, firstly, I think that is emphatically true in these early days, I still feel like we're very much in the early days of this AI evolution, right? It to me, I'm old enough that I remember so keenly what it was like when the World Wide Web, you know, started to hit businesses in the early 90s.

00:20:56:05 - 00:21:03:22

Dottie Schindlinger

And, you know, it felt at first it felt very novel. And it was like, oh, we could we could build a website, we could build a better website.

00:21:03:21 - 00:21:15:08

Dottie Schindlinger

And then it just became the way everything happened and so many things were disrupted by it. So many things were accelerated by it, but other things were completely disrupted by it, like, I think specifically of

00:21:15:08 - 00:21:24:01

Dottie Schindlinger

like, graphic designers and, you know, a lot of people that spent most of their time working on print publications. You know, print very quickly became quite passé.

00:21:24:00 - 00:21:25:09

Dottie Schindlinger

know, within about ten years

00:21:25:08 - 00:21:27:11

Dottie Schindlinger

of the World Wide Web becoming the thing. So

00:21:27:10 - 00:21:39:02

Dottie Schindlinger

I had the opportunity to be at this director roundtable in June at the Financial Times Outstanding Directors Exchange, and we did a roundtable on AI and sort of disruptive technology.

00:21:39:02 - 00:21:42:21

Dottie Schindlinger

And there was a director in the room who had such an interesting comment.

00:21:42:21 - 00:21:47:17

Dottie Schindlinger

And it was, I'm not going to give specifics because everything was sort of under Chatham House Rule, but

00:21:47:17 - 00:21:54:08

Dottie Schindlinger

had a great commentary about the way that this one particular role within the company,

00:21:54:08 - 00:22:00:08

Dottie Schindlinger

people kind of come in at an entry level. They learn the ropes by doing a lot of just routine stuff,

00:22:00:08 - 00:22:06:06

Dottie Schindlinger

and that trains them really well for a future role in management in that same functional area.

00:22:06:06 - 00:22:26:04

Dottie Schindlinger

So I mean, an example would be the legal profession, right? Like so a paralegal comes in, they spend a lot of time looking up statutes, looking up contracts, doing that kind of like basic review of documents. They learn a lot about that. And over time they begin to sort of understand how the company applies certain principles or how it sort of looks at things, how it thinks about things from a legal perspective.

00:22:26:08 - 00:22:29:03

Dottie Schindlinger

And that then makes them more eligible to take

00:22:29:03 - 00:22:31:23

Dottie Schindlinger

a little bit more senior legal role.

00:22:31:23 - 00:22:34:06

Dottie Schindlinger

And the comment the director made was,

00:22:34:06 - 00:22:38:15

Dottie Schindlinger

what do we do when that entire pipeline and career path

00:22:38:15 - 00:22:49:07

Dottie Schindlinger

is completely upended by AI? Because that whole process has been automated by AI, I mean something like looking up contracts and finding the differences. That's the kind of thing you throw AI at

00:22:49:08 - 00:22:53:21

Dottie Schindlinger

very willingly, because it's going to do it probably better than the human, faster than the human.

00:22:53:21 - 00:22:55:16

Dottie Schindlinger

But then the human

00:22:55:16 - 00:23:04:18

Dottie Schindlinger

isn't learning the ropes. And in fact, there was this really interesting study that I saw about a week after that coming out of MIT. Now

00:23:04:17 - 00:23:14:03

Dottie Schindlinger

I'm a researcher and full disclaimer this was a very small scale study. I think there were only 54 participants. So it's the kind of thing that needs to be repeated a lot and reviewed.

00:23:14:08 - 00:23:29:08

Dottie Schindlinger

But in this little study that they did, they took a group of people and they had them write essays, and some of them wrote essays using no tools at all. Some of them wrote essays using, you know, Google and search engines, and some of them wrote essays using ChatGPT.

00:23:29:09 - 00:23:29:23

Dottie Schindlinger

And then they

00:23:29:23 - 00:23:33:16

Dottie Schindlinger

hooked everybody up to EEGs to look at their brain function

00:23:33:15 - 00:23:36:17

Dottie Schindlinger

and what was really fascinating was the people who were using ChatGPT.

00:23:36:18 - 00:23:40:08

Dottie Schindlinger

it was as if they were asleep. There was like almost no brain function.

00:23:40:08 - 00:23:48:17

Dottie Schindlinger

And the people that were using no tools had the highest brain function. The people using search engines were somewhere in the middle. But interestingly, when they then switched the groups,

00:23:48:16 - 00:23:55:06

Dottie Schindlinger

the people that had started with ChatGPT and then had to use just their brains, still had lower brain function.

00:23:55:05 - 00:24:00:20

Dottie Schindlinger

The people who had started with their brains and then use ChatGPT still had higher brain function.

00:24:00:20 - 00:24:05:06

Dottie Schindlinger

And so it speaks to something that concerns me, which is

00:24:05:07 - 00:24:08:20

Dottie Schindlinger

how do we make sure that we're using AI

00:24:08:20 - 00:24:13:08

Dottie Schindlinger

as a thought partner and not as a replacement for a thought?

00:24:13:07 - 00:24:20:14

Dottie Schindlinger

And I'm not so sure in this race to automate things in this race for efficiency, in this race, for productivity.

00:24:20:16 - 00:24:25:18

Dottie Schindlinger

I'm not so sure we're thinking this way. And it concerns me. Your thoughts, Meghan Day?

00:24:25:17 - 00:24:38:07

Meghan Day

I mean, that's a lot to unpack, Dottie. I don't I don't know that I don't I don't disagree by any means. I, I very much agree. I think, personally, where I have been

00:24:38:06 - 00:24:40:06

Meghan Day

most successful,

00:24:40:06 - 00:24:42:13

Meghan Day

in embracing AI in my job,

00:24:42:13 - 00:24:50:01

Meghan Day

are the areas where I already know what good looks like. And it's able to speed

00:24:50:01 - 00:24:52:10

Meghan Day

my work along

00:24:52:11 - 00:24:58:23

Meghan Day

as someone who can get me to the output that I need faster than me sitting with a blank screen

00:24:58:22 - 00:25:06:15

Meghan Day

But again, to your point, I already know where I need to go. I have the skills and expertise to get the machine there

00:25:06:13 - 00:25:08:10

Dottie Schindlinger

Yeah. I you know, I will say,

00:25:08:10 - 00:25:22:20

Dottie Schindlinger

I don't remember where we first saw it. It might actually have been from our CEO Brian Stafford. There was a fabulous podcast, an article that was circulated by this guy Jeff Woods. He's written a book as well called the “AI Driven Leader,” and he's got this really interesting

00:25:22:20 - 00:25:38:23

Dottie Schindlinger

framework, a rubric, I'm not sure what you would call it, that you can use to turn generative AI into your thought partner, rather than abdicating thought to generative AI and the way that he structures it is you basically use ChatGPT or whatever tool you have.

00:25:39:01 - 00:25:39:20

Dottie Schindlinger

And by the way,

00:25:39:20 - 00:25:49:19

Dottie Schindlinger

don't use the freebie version so you're not, you know, all your great IP is now training the model. No, no, this needs to be something that is proprietary to your company. But when you have that capability, you then use it

00:25:49:20 - 00:26:02:08

Dottie Schindlinger

to almost create like a board for yourself. So you train it to have different agents with different personalities and different perspectives, and then you bring problems to it and say, frame this problem for me.

00:26:02:19 - 00:26:19:02

Dottie Schindlinger

And that's really powerful because what it does is it helps you to kind of see things with a different perspective. It's as if you're a CEO and you're taking something to your board and saying, board, frame this issue for me, and where might I get some contacts that could help us with this problem and where might I, you know, get some

00:26:19:02 - 00:26:21:20

Dottie Schindlinger

assistance with this particular issue that we're dealing with?

00:26:21:22 - 00:26:29:08

Dottie Schindlinger

And it's really good at looking at the sum total of human knowledge and surfacing up some interesting ideas for you.

00:26:29:09 - 00:26:40:04

Dottie Schindlinger

I'm not saying, by the way, that it should replace boards. What I am saying is it should augment and supercharge boards because some times we're limited by what the people in the room know

00:26:40:04 - 00:26:42:23

Dottie Schindlinger

or by what the people in the room have access to.

00:26:42:23 - 00:26:59:05

Dottie Schindlinger

And maybe using generative AI in this way gives us a different capability and allows us to use the stuff that people in the room know in addition to the rest of the world's knowledge. But again, to your point, Megan, like, we still have to have humans in the loop. We have to make sure we're vetting that information, that it's

00:26:59:05 - 00:27:00:04

Dottie Schindlinger

accurate.

00:27:00:04 - 00:27:06:07

Dottie Schindlinger

If it's stuff that you're an expert in, it's way easier to do that. When you're not an expert in something and you use ChatGPT

00:27:06:06 - 00:27:07:12

Dottie Schindlinger

generative AI,

00:27:07:12 - 00:27:11:12

Dottie Schindlinger

you might get in a little trouble because sometimes it doesn't give you correct information.

00:27:11:12 - 00:27:12:11

Dottie Schindlinger

So I don't know

00:27:12:11 - 00:27:13:23

Dottie Schindlinger

you're right. There's a lot to unpack there, but

00:27:14:00 - 00:27:16:17

Dottie Schindlinger

I, I, I hesitate a little on the

00:27:16:17 - 00:27:24:13

Dottie Schindlinger

‘rah rah, let's use AI for everything,’ when I think there might be some things we don't want to use AI for. There might be some things where it becomes a

00:27:24:12 - 00:27:26:00

Dottie Schindlinger

disadvantage,

00:27:26:00 - 00:27:26:14

Dottie Schindlinger

like

00:27:26:14 - 00:27:28:12

Dottie Schindlinger

it completely upends a whole career path.

00:27:28:12 - 00:27:39:00

Dottie Schindlinger

And maybe that's not a good idea. You know, maybe that has downstream consequences that we need to think through, or we use it to wholesale replace entire sectors of white collar work, which frankly,

00:27:38:23 - 00:27:45:18

Dottie Schindlinger

I think hurts companies. I don't see that helping companies. I mean, maybe in the short term it helps you save a little money on the bottom line.

00:27:45:20 - 00:27:49:22

Dottie Schindlinger

But in the long term, have you just taken the purchasing power out of your entire,

00:27:49:21 - 00:27:51:12

Dottie Schindlinger

consumer base? Have you,

00:27:51:11 - 00:27:59:04

Dottie Schindlinger

you know, upended people that you would typically partner with? Have you made it harder to hire, you know, I think we have to just sort of think through some of these downstream

00:27:59:05 - 00:28:04:06

Dottie Schindlinger

consequences before we get really into the idea of using AI to replace people.

00:28:04:05 - 00:28:10:01

Meghan Day

yeah. It's funny. I keep coming back to the Duolingo example from a couple of months ago where

00:28:10:00 - 00:28:13:04

Meghan Day

the CEO came out and made all of these proclamation that, you know, they're

00:28:13:05 - 00:28:16:15

Meghan Day

going to replace their workforce with AI and

00:28:16:15 - 00:28:17:20

Meghan Day

the consumers,

00:28:17:21 - 00:28:19:01

Meghan Day

of that solution

00:28:19:01 - 00:28:22:18

Meghan Day

lost their minds. And the internet revolted and he backtracked.

00:28:23:00 - 00:28:23:22

Meghan Day

I think that

00:28:23:20 - 00:28:24:16

Meghan Day

is,

00:28:24:16 - 00:28:28:00

Meghan Day

very much reflective of sort of the, the struggle,

00:28:28:02 - 00:28:35:04

Meghan Day

and divisiveness of AI right now. I think very quickly that is going to change and it is going to be much more integrated.

00:28:35:03 - 00:28:38:13

Meghan Day

in every person's life, whether we like it or not.

00:28:38:13 - 00:28:40:15

Dottie Schindlinger

Well, that's for sure. True. And the other thing

00:28:40:14 - 00:28:42:18

Dottie Schindlinger

also true, Megan, is eventually,

00:28:42:18 - 00:28:46:22

Dottie Schindlinger

we don't need to have whole shows about AI. It's just going to be part of every conversation.

00:28:46:22 - 00:28:50:10

Dottie Schindlinger

I made this comment. I was I was at a conference on Friday, and, you know,

00:28:50:10 - 00:28:55:04

Dottie Schindlinger

I was talking to the conference organizer because I got there a little bit late and I said, so how's it been going?

00:28:55:04 - 00:28:56:00

Dottie Schindlinger

And they said, well,

00:28:56:01 - 00:28:58:03

Dottie Schindlinger

no matter what the agenda item was

00:28:58:03 - 00:29:05:01

Dottie Schindlinger

every single conversation has been about AI. It's that that's the way it's going to be. I mean, because it's going to infiltrate every single part of

00:29:05:00 - 00:29:08:19

Dottie Schindlinger

our work and our lives, and it's just going to be part of everything that we do.

00:29:08:19 - 00:29:10:23

Dottie Schindlinger

And so, you know, very quickly

00:29:10:23 - 00:29:13:00

Dottie Schindlinger

it just becomes the way we get stuff done.

00:29:13:01 - 00:29:16:08

Dottie Schindlinger

So anyway, I'm really glad you had a chance to talk to someone who is

00:29:16:08 - 00:29:28:16

Dottie Schindlinger

more knowledgeable on these topics, and I will ever be and can, in a much more thoughtful and nuanced way, talk about these issues. Because Beena Ammanath is fantastic, and if you have a chance to check out her books, her books are just so good.

00:29:28:16 - 00:29:30:04

Dottie Schindlinger

They're so,

00:29:30:03 - 00:29:33:13

Dottie Schindlinger

identifiable. They're so validating. They're so impactful.

00:29:33:14 - 00:29:38:04

Dottie Schindlinger

I, I loved “Trustworthy AI,” I haven't had a chance to read “Zero Latency Leadership,” but I've

00:29:38:05 - 00:29:38:22

Dottie Schindlinger

got it. I'm

00:29:38:22 - 00:29:44:14

Dottie Schindlinger

looking forward to reading it. She's just terrific. So can't say enough good things about our friend Beena. I'm so glad she joined us on the show.

00:29:44:14 - 00:29:52:06

Dottie Schindlinger

Well, Megan, that wraps up another episode of the Corporate director podcast, The Voice of Modern Governance, still brought to you by humans.

00:29:52:11 - 00:30:16:23

Dottie Schindlinger

We'd like to say a few special thank yous, first and foremost, to our actual AI expert, Beena Ammanath, podcast producers Kira Ciccarelli, Steve Claydon and Laura Klein, the sponsors of the show, PwC, KPMG, Wilson Sonsini, and Meridian Compensation Partners, and most especially, thanks to Diligent for putting up with our show.

If you like our show, please be sure to give us a rating on your podcast player of choice. Five stars only, please.

00:30:17:01 - 00:30:25:07

Dottie Schindlinger

You can also listen to our episodes and see more from the Diligent Institute by going to diligent.com/resources. Thank you so much for listening.

00:30:26:01 - 00:31:00:19

Narrator

You've been listening to the Corporate Director podcast to ensure that you never miss an episode. Subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. If you'd like to learn more about corporate governance and tools to help directors do their job better. Visit www.diligent.com. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time.