Volunteer boards large and small benefit from development

Julie shares her insights on how board training and development can transform organizations. For nonprofits, this means understanding the unique role of the board, from governance to strategic oversight, and how to ensure that board members are equipped to ask the right questions and add value without overstepping.

We also discuss the importance of a strong, supportive relationship between the board and the CEO. Julie shares real-life anecdotes and practical advice on board training and development.

Stick around to the end to find out what advice Julie gives for leaders to ensure that board training is ongoing and not just a one-time event. 

Resources on board development and training for volunteer boards

Board training and development for volunteer boards: 4 key focus areas

Board development & training in mission-driven organizations: Tips from leaders

Why board development matters: An infographic and guide for nonprofit leaders

Here is an edited transcript of the conversation:

Jill Holtz: So today I'm joined by Julie Castro Abrams, Julie, welcome. Will you tell me a little bit about yourself, your organization and your role there?

Julie Castro Abrams: I actually lead two different big initiatives. One is as the CEO of How Women Lead, and it's all about this huge generation of women operators. How do we break through whatever glass ceilings there are, whether it's getting on a corporate board, a nonprofit board, or even thinking about your investments, your brand. And then I also, together with women from that network, we created How Women Invest, which is a venture firm.

Jill Holtz: Excellent. So can you describe how board training works in your organization to kick us off? That's what I want to talk to you today about board development and training.

Julie Castro Abrams: Well, I'll tell you, Jill, for me, don't think, well, I'm an adult learning methodology expert, so let's just start with that. So talking at people and just giving people theoretical frameworks and it doesn't help people really learn. So everything that we do in all of our training is very interactive. It definitely, we have sort of, it's scaffold like, first, what kind of word is right for you? Meet people, they can tell you the pros into action. And of course we do training on, you know, what are the, what's the committees role and what are the, you know, some case studies and that kind of thing. But I actually think probably more importantly, it's, I focus on women and we know diversity on boards is extremely valuable for, and there's clear data that companies perform better, they manage risk better, etc. So having really confident women who know their value.

Jill Holtz: Great. And then when it comes to non-profit organizations, why do you think the board training and development is important for them, for the board members that you place?

Julie Castro Abrams: Well, OK, Jill, this comes from a lifetime of experience. Let's start with that. is in nonprofit boards, actually, and every state has some guidelines. But there's generally a framework, which is you have very limited scope as a board director in a nonprofit. And usually you only need three people legally. Everything from there on is all variable. So if you've been on a couple boards, you’ll go into one board and it doesn't look anything like the other board and there isn't necessarily always a good training or map on what's the scope of the board. So chaos ensues.

And so I think what's so critical is for people to understand, and we do trainings on this and place people on nonprofit boards as well, what is the core of what you're really responsible for? And then what are the optional additional things you can choose.

I also do a lot of training with the executive directors or the CEOs of nonprofits and my biggest message to them is don't ask your board to opine on something you don't want them to get involved in because if you're on a nonprofit board you want to add value. You're giving your time and your money. You're not necessarily making money like on a corporate board. It's kind of the opposite. And so people want to add value.

Jill Holtz: So what I'm hearing is one of the first things is what are your roles and responsibilities as a board member is kind of number one in terms of why that's important to because without that training and explanation, a new board member particularly won't know for that organization how things work.

Julie Castro Abrams: Well, and what we're doing is we're working with, we work with executive directors. We also work with potential board members, people who are already on nonprofit board. And think having them equipped with knowing the differences and then being able to ask great questions and maybe even challenge an organization. if they're bored, you know, I've been a consultant to dozens of boards that were having problems and being able to come into a system and say, hey, can I ask some questions about why this is this way and is this really serving us and how could I help guide the governance of this organization to maybe be clearer or more focused on the stuff that, what I call it is being a strategic advantage to the organization.

Jill Holtz: So let's drill into that particular aspect of board development in terms of governance training. How important is it for the board to have governance training and what's your perspective on that?

Julie Castro Abrams: Well, I think it's absolutely essential. A lot of nonprofit boards, they could be a brand new baby organization, or they could be a huge hundred million billion dollar institution, right? So it varies dramatically what their role is. And in the life stages of boards, when a board is really young, sometimes the board is the, they hire an executive director basically to be an admin. Sometimes the executive director is the founder and they bring on a board of friends. know, so that's usually the initial start of an organization and then as it grows, you know, really understanding what's the line between board and staff? What is your governance responsibility really? You know, I was on a board once and they would vote on the financial statements every month and I was like they just are what they are, there's no need to vote on them. I've seen all kinds of interesting things. So how can you be fiduciary, how can you be a responsible fiduciary without getting into the weeds? What do they say? Noses in, fingers out? So what are great questions to ask? What is the range of your responsibility? I would say in addition to like what are the 990 and just like the basic things that nonprofit needs to have. Do have DNO insurance? Are you always checking like, do we have a structure where you cannot possibly miss a tax bill? Like some of those things are pretty important. How are you investing and managing your assets? Some of those are the really important role of a board. And then also sort of asking great questions about, where's the risk for us? Are we in any regulatory compliance? Are we managing the mission and the CEO and their team well? Those are all those are all things that that are sort of core to you as a governor and really ultimately, are you are, you know, are you managing stakeholders well and are you really truly meeting the mission in its fullest sense?

Jill Holtz: What about new things that are coming down the tracks like AI and obviously cyber risk has been around for a while but you know it changes all the time. Are those things that you think need to be covered in kind of board training as well?

Julie Castro Abrams: Well, yes, but because they change all the time, the most important thing for a board is to be future looking so that when the leader is looking down and trying to survive from day to day with all the today there's some little chaos going on in the world and really making sure that you as board member can see the risks like cyber risk, right? And can ask those great questions. You as a board member knowing how to be future focusing. And literally knowing how to ask questions that don't make someone defensive and you're not making statements and telling people what to do.

Jill Holtz: So what I'm hearing is that they need at least an understanding to be able to ask the right questions to then be able to keep that bird's eye view and oversight and keep things on track for the mission and strategic. So strategic skills are what I'm hearing you mention a lot as well.

Julie Castro Abrams: They are, now what's interesting Jill is I've seen so much variation on strategic planning and the role of a board in that and you know some boards are like oh how fun, I don't really know about the nuances of how you do this educational effort or whatever and then they start getting involved in stuff that is totally inappropriate for a board to get involved in. It's really the staff or the PhDs and the experts in that area. You as a board should have be asking the great questions, making sure that you have a plan and some contingencies. But I just think we have to always keep going back to what is the role of the board is not to run an organization or to say we're going to add a program and I'm going to have a role in it, if you will. Does that make sense?

Jill Holtz. Yeah. What specific responsibilities do you feel that the executive leader or the board chair have in facilitating board training and development?

Julie Castro Abrams: I'll start with the board chair. one of the things that is, it's, you know, for everybody listening for you, Jill, like if you've ever been on a board, sometimes a board gets to a point where they're not supporting the CEO. And, you know, this is where really dangerous territory comes in. And the CEO spending all their time defending themselves or trying to prepare, you know, agendas that are better and better, whatever, seem to be anticipatory.

And you know, I think it's absolutely essential as a chair that you create a culture that supports the CEO. If the CEO is not doing a good job, then your job is to evaluate them and either do corrective action or help or remove them from their role and replace them. But anything that is destructive in the meantime is terrible for the organization and the chair is responsible to make sure that doesn't happen. Does that make sense, Jill?

Jill Holtz: Yeah, absolutely. Thinking how, so the role of, I would say, both leader or chair in the organization, in terms of when it is a positive relationship, not when it's broken down, but is to make sure there is a good culture between the governing team of the organization and that there's maybe a culture of that we are going to continue to try and improve to be better at the governance. Am I right there?

Julie Castro Abrams: Yes, well, and that it's your responsibility to say, we're backing up the CEO, you don't really managing the culture. I think the other thing that the board chair is responsible to do, of course, set the agenda of the making sure it's at the right level with the CEO. But it's also to make sure board members are heard and engaged and that there's no destructive behavior that you have adequate committee structures is appropriate.

So should the finance and the audit committee now be split into two? There's moments in time when that becomes pretty important. you know, those are examples of what I think the chair role is, but it's also a great relationship with the CEO. Now what's interesting is, as the CEO of an organization, the board chair, this was a long time ago, 20 years ago, the board chair said, you know, oh, I just want you to be able to lean on me, and I made the mistake of giving too much information about, for example, a staff member that was bugging me that day. I should have just kept my mouth shut because afterwards, you know, it felt like every time I talked to this person, they're like, well, you know, are you, you know, it's like it was nobody's perfect. There was a moment, but then you get into these weird, messy things. So understanding as the CEO what to bring to the board and what to bring to your coach or somebody else that is fully outside where you can process through or vent or whatever and not bring them things like the cost of the pencils. Where all of sudden they're like, know, board member is like, okay, let me help you with the cost of the pencils. And it's like totally inappropriate. But that's what happens all the time. So being disciplined about what you bring people.

Jill Holtz: So to foster this culture maybe of continuous learning and improvement of the board towards becoming a better board, what are some innovative approaches to board development that you've seen in your experience?

Julie Castro Abrams: Well, I actually like to spread it out and have learning moments throughout different meetings, not just like save it for one day. It's too much to absorb. It's not how people learn. It's not how behavior changes. And so I like to bring in other speakers. I certainly, I always have a mission moment in board meetings so people really get a sense of this is why we're doing this. So I think there are a number of things like that that really help create that sense of culture and good focus.

Jill Holtz: Love that. Yeah. And you're right, think sometimes, well there's times to do a deep dive and kind of have a really in-depth session that takes longer than a moment, but too much information, people switch off, don't they, from learning and absorbing. Let's talk about onboarding new members, because it seems to me that's a really critical time for giving them the key training that they need and setting them up for success. What in your experience makes successful or unsuccessful onboarding?

Julie Castro Abrams: Well, I think right now, for example, I think I do an okay job. I'm not sure it's really where it could be. And I'm on a board that felt like the onboarding was so many checklists of so many different things I was supposed to do. Honestly, I didn't follow it. So I think we have to find a good balance between giving enough information and having enough structure. if it's overwhelming that people ignore it, it's not helpful. You know, I actually like doing a training that starts with like how you can be a strategic advantage. Sure, it's like here's the Google Drive with all the documents, fine. You know, here's our, you know, here's the inside information about the, how we make our money and you know, where the risk areas and that kind of stuff. But really like, what is the, give multiple examples of this is how a board member wins. This is how they've been a strategic advantage and been extremely valuable.

Jill Holtz: Love that. Yeah.

Julie Castro Abrams: Give examples, a case study of a couple of people, you don't give case studies of the negative stuff you know certainly but I think that creates an aspiration for people and people when they join a nonprofit board they want to do something so I always say give them something to do fast whether it is to you know, I don't know, make some introductions to some people who could be influential legislators, whatever, for the organization. You want people to feel like they've added value pretty quickly so that they don't linger.

Jill Holtz: That's really interesting. So one way that you can keep board members engaged from the get-go but then also as ongoing board members is building out opportunities for them to add value where development that they go through or training that they go through also helps them feel like they're doing that.

Julie Castro Abrams: Yes, exactly. And it's so interesting, the varied roles that people can play. But you just have to remember human nature. If I feel like I'm failing or I didn't do a good job on something, it is often human nature for people then to poke holes at something else and deflect. So, you know, paying attention to, I mean, that's a warning sign if you missed the setting it up well.

Jill Holtz: Yeah.

Julie Castro Abrams: It's certainly a warning sign of what you need to be doing now to right the ship if someone starts being negative or diving in or whatever.

Jill Holtz: Yes. Let's talk next about technology. I work for Diligent that sells BoardEffect, which is software that helps nonprofit boards. How do you see technology playing a role or being leveraged for board development and training? Where are some things, again, in terms of your experience that you think that it does a good job?

Julie Castro Abrams: Well. This is the thing. Everybody asks for, I would love to be able to find blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, will they go to it? Like I've created so many things. We've got WhatsApp groups. We've got a bunch of different, you know, places for people to go find all the resources and then they don't go. And so how do and I don't have all the answers, Jill, you know more than I do, I am certain, but how do you embed something so that it becomes ubiquitous and people use it and engage with.

Jill Holtz: Okay.

Julie Castro Abrams: They don't need the sponsorship package every day that they want to send to them or the people that they know. I think that's where the value of diligent is.

Jill Holtz: But knowing where to find that easily and quickly and be able to search for it and having it in one place and it's the up-to-date version and not going through 29 emails that all had that title. Yeah.

Julie Castro Abrams: Exactly, which ends up, you know, you which ends up fading your commitment or your ability to have impact. So if you can have that one place, but then reinforce it with, you know, at the board meeting, say, hey, pull up your board folder and then let's use the materials that are in there. Or, you know, everybody has their action plan of what they're adding value to for the organization. We've got dashboards in there of both the organization performance and the board's performance.

Jill Holtz: Yes.

Julie Castro Abrams: But we do a quarterly meeting with every board member to talk about how things are going and how they want to add value and find that if we miss that very often, too much, you know, the women that are on my boards are so busy, like they don't have a lot of time. So you have to have a moment to say, okay, this quarter, what can we do together so that it stays top of mind?

Jill Holtz: So, what I'm hearing is technology and then the reinforcing behaviors, asking for feedback regularly, which again can be done through BoardEffect. You can set up surveys, for example, for after your meetings. And sometimes people are more open to doing a survey about something than saying the thing face to face as well, aren't they? It can be a good way of gathering feedback.

Julie Castro Abrams: We do board surveys and I try to do it like, I have people start it while we're in the meeting because I feel like if I just send an email, people save it for Saturday. And if you make it too long and overwhelming, yeah.

Jill Holtz: Yeah, then they're going to ignore it afterwards. So Julie, just to finish up, I want to ask you some quickfire questions if that's okay.

Julie Castro Abrams: Okay, yeah.

Jill Holtz: Some of it we've discussed already, but just say your answer in 30 seconds kind of idea, so quickfire answer. So, ready? So what's the number one thing non-profit leaders should be doing when it comes to their boards training and development?

Julie Castro Abrams: Yeah.

Jill Holtz: Love it. How can executive leaders ensure that board training is ongoing and not just a one-time event, say when board member joins?

Julie Castro Abrams: I think you should integrate it into every board meeting.

Jill Holtz: Love it. And what advice would you give to non-profit leaders for how to keep board members motivated and engaged in their own development?

Julie Castro Abrams: I think the board has a role in in helping set a development plan and helping that leader get out. Non-profit leaders are focused on helping everybody else in their organization and often do not spend time developing themselves. So a board saying here we'd love to see you do these kinds of trainings and or get a coach or whatever, that almost always has to come from the board.

Jill Holtz: I love that. Thank you, Julie. That's great. Well, I really appreciate you spending the time with me talking about this topic today. You've clearly got so much experience. It's been great to hear some of your perspective. Thank you.